Welcome to podcast number two. I'm Sandeep Shroff, CEO at Numera. Our goal is to provide world-class finance and accounting information to business owners, entrepreneurs, and founders. Today we have with us Emily Owczarek, Senior Controller at Brave Health.

While most founders are taught to pitch, scale, and pivot, there's a lot that goes on behind the curtains that we don't get to see. That's where Emily comes in. She's been in the room with founders during critical decisions at Tough Mudder, SeatGeek, Kickstarter, and now Brave Health. She's seen the emotional rollercoasters founders go through, and she's often the stable presence in that room. We'll be having a candid chat with her today.

With that, I'll hand over to Venus Bakhtiari, our Senior Vice President of Growth.

Thanks, Sandeep. I've worked with founders over the last six years, from incorporation all the way to public companies, helping them outsource their back office or supplement their in-house teams. Emily, over to you.

Thanks, Venus, and thanks, Sandeep. I've been in startup accounting and finance for about 15 years, always in startups. It's been an incredible ride and the most fun thing to talk about, so I'm excited to dig in.

Emily, you studied philosophy in college, which is not a traditional path into finance. How has that background helped you, and what do you think other accountants might be missing?

I hope my parents are watching this, because it turned out okay. The main thing my philosophy background gave me was critical thinking and a need to understand why, not just what. Even from my earliest days as an accounts payable clerk, it was never satisfying to just do something without understanding the bigger implication.

Accounting is really a beautiful logical system more than it is mathematics. Understanding how numbers form the picture of a business is a logic question. I think a lot of traditional accounting training is very rote and by the book, which doesn't always encourage that kind of questioning. That's why accountants get a reputation for being boring, which I completely reject. But in startups especially, you need that curiosity and creativity.

You've been through financial ups and downs at multiple startups. How does a founder's relationship with money change as a company evolves?

The stage I find most interesting is when the company starts to do well and money comes in. It can actually be a risky time. There's a feeling of we have money in the bank, we have to spend it, and decision making becomes more about growth than sustainability. Things move fast and can get a little wasteful.

The flip side is when money is tight. That can be culturally devastating, especially when it leads to layoffs. I think founders take those down periods really hard. It's a real hit to the ego to have to let people go, especially during a difficult time for the world. But the ups and downs together are what find the balance between scalability and sustainability.

At Kickstarter you experienced something quite different, where the founder chose to stay independent rather than pursue aggressive fundraising. How did that compare?

Kickstarter is a fascinating place. Perry Chen, the founder, had a vision for a company with more than one bottom line. Yes, be profitable, but also deliver public benefit. Kickstarter became a Public Benefit Corporation in 2015, which codified that into the company's DNA.

That had a huge impact on the culture. Kickstarter was one of the first tech companies to unionize and moved to a four-day work week. These things can only happen at a company whose DNA is set by a founder who says we are going to be different. You also need to have the money to do it, and Kickstarter was a good idea that sustained itself without needing too much outside influence.

What is the most common mistake you see startup founders make?

Stacking the company too early at the C-suite level. It is very tempting because founders know they cannot do everything themselves and want to bring in experienced people. But there are ways to do that without handing out C-suite titles, which get expensive very quickly and often do not deliver the results you would expect.

The people who actually make a company run in the early days are the operators and the managers. Focus on how good your management team is. Get advisement from outside. But the people you need on staff are not the C-suite, at least not until much later.

I would add one thing. The biggest mistake I see is founders falling in love with their product rather than with the problem they are solving. If you have to pivot, you have to pivot. A lot of early stage founders cannot let go of their idea. If you are going to fall in love with anything, fall in love with the customer's problem.

That is really wise. And it reminds me that there is often a hesitancy to invest in customer research because it seems expensive. But what is far more expensive is developing a product nobody asked for.

What is the deepest emotional struggle you have seen founders go through when facing major financial decisions?

It is the identity that founders have with their company. They are so identified with it that letting other people come in and take some of that away is very destabilising.

The clearest example is when you need to raise money and give up some control of your company. You are suddenly in a boardroom with someone who is going to get to tell you what to do because you need their money. And that emotional effect plays out over years, not just in the moment. Employees feel it too. They sense a difference in communications and direction. It is a break between how much founders identify with the company and what it is becoming.

I have watched this too often. It is gut-wrenching because you see people lose their sense of self. And it is not a good thing to watch.

How do founders balance mission against financial reality, especially at companies like Kickstarter and Brave Health with strong social missions?

It is an everyday reality, not something that gets resolved. At Brave Health, we serve primarily the Medicaid population, who often do not get access to mental health services until it is too late. Medicaid does not pay as well as commercial insurance, so we have to balance serving our Medicaid patients well while also leaning into our non-Medicaid patients to sustain the business.

You cannot give in completely to profitability or you lose sight of your mission. And you cannot give in completely to your mission or you will not be able to pay for it. You have to keep both in mind, all the time.

Founders are by definition a little imbalanced in the best way, they have tunnel vision on their vision. Keeping that balance is one of the most underrated success factors. And I would put in a pitch here for accountants and finance people who help keep that balance alive.